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Archiv klubu Turnaj piškvorkových UI [ŽP: neomezená] (kategorie Programování) moderuje Šéf Lopuchu.

Vítejte na diskuzním fóru turnaje piškvorkových brainů Gomocup. Každý může naprogramovat vlastní umělou inteligenci a zůčastnit se turnaje, který je každý rok na jaře. Tady se můžeme domlouvat, diskutovat o pravidlech a vyměňovat si zkušenosti.

8. turnaj se konal v sobotu 27.4.2007 na Universite v Plzni. Zvítězil program Tito a autor Andrej Tokarjev tak získal cenu 50 euro.

WWW stránky turnaje (http://gomocup.wz.cz)

Link na archiv starších příspěvků

HTML specifikace nového protokolu

Kubin - Řízení turnaje
Pela - Vývoj protokolu, kostry a manažeru
OTK - Webmaster

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[ 215 ] <Novější  <<<Nejnovější  Nejstarší>>>  Starší>  
jarek 2.6.2005 09:15  291
Napsal jsem Viragovi a ten mě mimo jiné odkázal ohledně jejich protokolu na jejich stránky: http://www.renju.hu/index.jsp?menupont_id=7&node_id=23
Proklikat se v angličtině k popisu toho protokolu, když maďarštinu odmítám, se mivšak nepodařilo. Kdyby se ti to povedlo, dej vědět.
Osobně se mi velmi zamlouvá Long-PRO (druhý tah černého mimo čtverec 7x7), jednoduché a účinné.
kubin 1.6.2005 18:08  290
Tak to se omluvám, to jsem nevěděl, považoval jsem to za zbrusu novou věc? A kde se o tom dočtu víc? Dá se něco někde stáhnout?

Co se týče protokolu, jmse pro to ať rozhodne Petr, jak to bude.

Swap Gomoku jsem zkoušel hrál na www.kurnik.pl, je to velice zajímavá varianta.
jarek 1.6.2005 08:49  289
Kubine nepřekrucujZdá se, že si skutečnost překrucuješ, jak se ti to zrovna hodí.
Pan Virag nemá žádný nový piškvorkový turnaj, jejich turnaj je starý min. 7 let, protože tak starý je jejich protokol. Rozhodně jej nehodlají nahradit tím naším, protože ten jejich toho umí podstatně víc a komunikace probíhá přes dll. Jediné co hodlají, je pozvat naše nejlepší 2 brainy a pro ně specielně bude umět jejich manager komunikovat přes textové soubory plocha.dat a tah.dat, takže se to nijak nedotýká naší diskuze.:-)
PS: už sis zkusil vyřešit ten zásah do rozehrané partie dvou brainů?
bilbo 31.5.2005 09:56  288
TakeBACK je predevsim nepovinny ... a ten by sel dodelat i do soucasneho protokolu (jako nepovinny) ... komu se chce, muze to podporovat
kubin 30.5.2005 15:53  287
problém s protokolem je tedy vyřešenJelikož Istvan Virag ve svém novém piškvorkovém turnaji bude používat protokol gomocupu, bylo by dobré vše zachovat, tak jak je.
anonym 30.5.2005 11:59  286
Istvan Virag, Gomoku competition - Gomocup 2005
Dear Organizers and Participants,

The „Gomocup” 2000-2005 (http://gomocup.wz.cz/en/index.htm) was very good idea, 
but I think it is the time to develop something in rules. More than ten years ago 
„Free Go-Moku” was solved: first player has a sure win [1]. In 1992 was the last 
official Computer Gomoku World Championship, because there was no sense to continue
competing programs in a solved game. Five years ago a harder Go-Moku variant called 
„Free-Renju” was also solved, where first player also has a sure win, but this win 
is much harder than in „Free Go-Moku”[2]. Both games were solved on 15x15 board. 
On bigger boards like 19x19 the victory of the first player is easier. Nowadays 
computers’ speed is thousand fold faster than ten years ago. Our program can win 
as a first player within 10 seconds, so it does not need the 3 min thinking time.

I think it is totally pointless to organize a „Free Go-Moku” championship. 
„Free Go-Moku” is no longer suitable for being a good subject of AI 
(artificial intelligence) research. For the better programmes there 
should be a competition organized with special opening rules (see above), 
which give more equal chance for both players. Another comment: it is a much 
better concept if 2 programmes play 2 20-minute games than 10 3-minute. Of course 
for weaker programmes there can still be a „Free Go-Moku” competition organized, 
as I mentioned before, I think the whole idea is very good.

J. Wágner will hold a competition for Hungarian programmes on 5th June and if the 
organizers and the programmers agree, he will enter the best programmes 
(Goro and Swine) from the Czech competition, which would not be part of the 
Hungarian competition. There will be special rules in Wágner’s competition, 19x19 board, 
overline counts as win. The organizers put up the opening of 5 stones (balanced opening) 
and the two programmes play 2 matches from the same opening, one with each colour.

With these rules there could be a much better competition organized, which help AI research.

István Virág, Hungary


[1]
Allis, L.V., Herik, H.J. van den, and Huntjens, M.P.H. (1996). 
Go-Moku Solved by New Search Techniques. 
Computational Intelligence: An International Journal. Vol. 12, No. 1, pp. 7-24. 
Special Issue on Games. Blackwell Publishers. ISSN 0824-7935.

[2]
Wágner and Virág (2001). Solving Renju. ICGA Journal, Vol. 24, No. 1, pp. 30-34.


POSSIBLE RULES:

„Pro Go-Moku” rule:
Played on a 15 by 15 board, and unbroken line (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) 
of exactly five stones achieve a winning pattern, overline (six or more stones in a row) 
is not considered as a win (or loss) for both sides. There are restrictions on the first 
few moves to reduce the advantage Black has by going first:
Black's very first move must be in the center of the game board.
White's first move can be anywhere.
Black's second move must be outside the 5x5 area around the center of the board.
White's second move, and all moves after that, can be anywhere.

Disadvantage of this rule:
First player has a big advantage.

„Long-Pro Go-Moku” rule:
Same than “Pro Go-Moku”, but the difference is:
Black's second move must be outside the 7x7 area around the center of the board.

Disadvantage of this rule:
Second player has a initiative in the opening phase of the game but first player has 
little advantage, both players need special tactics and strategies at the opening stage.

„Swap Go-Moku” rule:

Played on a 15 by 15 board, and unbroken line (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) of 
exactly five stones achieve a winning pattern, overline (six or more stones in a row) is not 
considered as a win (or loss) for either side. First player (tentative black) puts three stones 
(two black and one white) anywhere on he board. After that second player (tentative white) has 
the right to change the colour of the stones (swap option).

Disadvantage of this rule:
First player (tentative black) has big preparation advantage because of he/she can prepare 
very subtle opening pattern including many tricky positions. First player (tentative black) 
can play from database at beginning of the game. Another problem is that first player can 
place first three stones near edge or corner of the board, then both players need to use 
special positional playing style, strategy is more dominant here than tactics.

„Tarannikov” rule:

Played on a 15 by 15 board, and unbroken line (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) of 
exactly five stones achieve a winning pattern, overline (six or more stones in a row) is not 
considered as a win (or loss) for either side.
1. The first Player plays a black stone at the center of the board. 
2. The second player can choose to swap side or put the 2nd stone. If he chooses to swap, 
   the first player puts the 2nd stone. The 2nd stone must be put in 3x3 area around the center of the board. 
3. The player next to play can choose to swap side or put the 3rd stone. 
   The 3rd stone must be put in 5x5 area around the center of the board. 
4. The player next to play can choose to swap side or put the 4th stone. 
   The 4th stone must be put in 7x7 area around the center of the board. 
5. The player next to play can choose to swap side or put the 5th stone. 
   The 5th stone must be put in 9x9 area around the center of the board. 
6. The player next to play can choose to swap side or put the 6th stone. 
No more swapping after the 6th stone. The game continues as standard Go-Moku rule.

Disadvantage of this rule:
Beginners can become frightened about this complex rule. Implementation of this rule is not easy in computer programmes.

„N-Rule”:

Played on a 19 by 19 board, and unbroken line (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) of 
exactly five stones achieve a winning pattern, overline (six or more stones in a row) is not 
considered as a win (or loss) for both sides.

1. Tentative Black's very first move must be in the center of the game board.
2. Tentative White must be put second stone in 5x5 area around the center of the board.
3. Tentative Black can be place 3rd stone anywhere.
4. Tentative White has the right to change the colour of the stones (swap option).
4.a. If Tentative White didn't swap, then there are no special opening rules anymore. 
     It means that no swaping at the game at all.
4 b. If Tentative White swaped sides, the other side have to make 4-th move as White.
5. Tentative White (now Black) have to make 5th move anywhere.
6. Now, Tentative Black (now White) is able to swap sides.
After that the game is played without any restrictions.

Disadvantage of this rule:
Beginners can become frightened about this complex rule. 
Implementation of this rule is not easy in computer programmes.

„Shape rule”

The organizers prepare several balanced 5 stones (3 black, 2 white) opening patterns. 
5 stones (3 black, 2 white) in 5x5 area around the center of the board, and another 
restriction is that 3 stones (2 black, 1 white) in 3x3 area around the center of the board. 
The organizers announce these patterns for participants some weeks before contest, so all 
participants can prepare for the competition. The organizers randomly select a balanced 5 stones 
opening pattern by a draw, and the two players play 2 matches from this same opening, one 
with each colour. Any participants has a right to propose a balanced 5 stones opening shape, 
or any participants has a right to reject a proposed 5 stones opening shape because 
he/she proved that is not balanced pattern.

 
Some variations:

#1:

First player (tentative black) puts three stones (two black and one white) in 3x3 area 
around the center of the board. After that second player (tentative white) puts two stones 
(one black and one white) in 5x5 area around the center of the board. After that first player 
(tentative black) has the right to change the colour of the stones (swap option). 
After that the game is played without any restrictions.

#2:

First player (tentative black) puts three stones (two black and one white) in 7x7 area around 
the center of the board. After that second player (tentative white) has three options, he/she 
need to choose one of these options:
1. Don’t swap sides, he/she have to make 4-th move as White.
2. Swap sides, the other side have to make 4-th move as White.
3. Put two stones (one black and one white) in 7x7 area around the center of the board, 
   and first player (tentative black) has the right to change the colour of the stones (swap option).
After that the game is played without any restrictions.

Other rules (mostly used for Renju):

„Sakata” rule
„Yamaguchi” rule

anonym 30.5.2005 11:33  285
Gomoku competition - Gomocup 2005Dear Organizers and Participants, The „Gomocup” 2000-2005 (http://gomocup.wz.cz/en/index.htm) was very good idea, but I think it is the time to develop something in rules. More than ten years ago „Free Go-Moku” was solved: first player has a sure win [1]. In 1992 was the last official Computer Gomoku World Championship, because there was no sense to continue competing programs in a solved game. Five years ago a harder Go-Moku variant called „Free-Renju” was also solved, where first player also has a sure win, but this win is much harder than in „Free Go-Moku”[2]. Both games were solved on 15x15 board. On bigger boards like 19x19 the victory of the first player is easier. Nowadays computers’ speed is thousand fold faster than ten years ago. Our program can win as a first player within 10 seconds, so it does not need the 3 min thinking time. I think it is totally pointless to organize a „Free Go-Moku” championship. „Free Go-Moku” is no longer suitable for being a good subject of AI (artificial intelligence) research. For the better programmes there should be a competition organized with special opening rules (see above), which give more equal chance for both players. Another comment: it is a much better concept if 2 programmes play 2 20-minute games than 10 3-minute. Of course for weaker programmes there can still be a „Free Go-Moku” competition organized, as I mentioned before, I think the whole idea is very good. J. Wágner will hold a competition for Hungarian programmes on 5th June and if the organizers and the programmers agree, he will enter the best programmes (Goro and Swine) from the Czech competition, which would not be part of the Hungarian competition. There will be special rules in Wágner’s competition, 19x19 board, overline counts as win. The organizers put up the opening of 5 stones (balanced opening) and the two programmes play 2 matches from the same opening, one with each colour. With these rules there could be a much better competition organized, which help AI research. István Virág, Hungary [1] Allis, L.V., Herik, H.J. van den, and Huntjens, M.P.H. (1996). Go-Moku Solved by New Search Techniques. Computational Intelligence: An International Journal. Vol. 12, No. 1, pp. 7-24. Special Issue on Games. Blackwell Publishers. ISSN 0824-7935. [2] Wágner and Virág (2001). Solving Renju. ICGA Journal, Vol. 24, No. 1, pp. 30-34. POSSIBLE RULES: „Pro Go-Moku” rule: Played on a 15 by 15 board, and unbroken line (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) of exactly five stones achieve a winning pattern, overline (six or more stones in a row) is not considered as a win (or loss) for both sides. There are restrictions on the first few moves to reduce the advantage Black has by going first: Black's very first move must be in the center of the game board. White's first move can be anywhere. Black's second move must be outside the 5x5 area around the center of the board. White's second move, and all moves after that, can be anywhere. Disadvantage of this rule: First player has a big advantage. „Long-Pro Go-Moku” rule: Same than “Pro Go-Moku”, but the difference is: Black's second move must be outside the 7x7 area around the center of the board. Disadvantage of this rule: Second player has a initiative in the opening phase of the game but first player has little advantage, both players need special tactics and strategies at the opening stage. „Swap Go-Moku” rule: Played on a 15 by 15 board, and unbroken line (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) of exactly five stones achieve a winning pattern, overline (six or more stones in a row) is not considered as a win (or loss) for either side. First player (tentative black) puts three stones (two black and one white) anywhere on he board. After that second player (tentative white) has the right to change the colour of the stones (swap option). Disadvantage of this rule: First player (tentative black) has big preparation advantage because of he/she can prepare very subtle opening pattern including many tricky positions. First player (tentative black) can play from database at beginning of the game. Another problem is that first player can place first three stones near edge or corner of the board, then both players need to use special positional playing style, strategy is more dominant here than tactics. „Tarannikov” rule: Played on a 15 by 15 board, and unbroken line (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) of exactly five stones achieve a winning pattern, overline (six or more stones in a row) is not considered as a win (or loss) for either side. The first Player plays a black stone at the center of the board. The second player can choose to swap side or put the 2nd stone. If he chooses to swap, the first player puts the 2nd stone. The 2nd stone must be put in 3x3 area around the center of the board. The player next to play can choose to swap side or put the 3rd stone. The 3rd stone must be put in 5x5 area around the center of the board. The player next to play can choose to swap side or put the 4th stone. The 4th stone must be put in 7x7 area around the center of the board. The player next to play can choose to swap side or put the 5th stone. The 5th stone must be put in 9x9 area around the center of the board. The player next to play can choose to swap side or put the 6th stone. No more swapping after the 6th stone. The game continues as standard Go-Moku rule. Disadvantage of this rule: Beginners can become frightened about this complex rule. Implementation of this rule is not easy in computer programmes. „N-Rule”: Played on a 19 by 19 board, and unbroken line (vertically, horizontally or diagonally) of exactly five stones achieve a winning pattern, overline (six or more stones in a row) is not considered as a win (or loss) for both sides. 1. Tentative Black's very first move must be in the center of the game board. 2. Tentative White must be put second stone in 5x5 area around the center of the board. 3. Tentative Black can be place 3rd stone anywhere. 4. Tentative White has the right to change the colour of the stones (swap option). 4.a If Tentative White didn't swap, then there are no special opening rules anymore. It means that no swaping at the game at all. 4 b. If Tentative White swaped sides, the other side have to make 4-th move as White. 5. Tentative White (now Black) have to make 5th move anywhere. 6. Now, Tentative Black (now White) is able to swap sides. After that the game is played without any restrictions. Disadvantage of this rule: Beginners can become frightened about this complex rule. Implementation of this rule is not easy in computer programmes. „Shape rule” The organizers prepare several balanced 5 stones (3 black, 2 white) opening patterns. 5 stones (3 black, 2 white) in 5x5 area around the center of the board, and another restriction is that 3 stones (2 black, 1 white) in 3x3 area around the center of the board. The organizers announce these patterns for participants some weeks before contest, so all participants can prepare for the competition. The organizers randomly select a balanced 5 stones opening pattern by a draw, and the two players play 2 matches from this same opening, one with each colour. Any participants has a right to propose a balanced 5 stones opening shape, or any participants has a right to reject a proposed 5 stones opening shape because he/she proved that is not balanced pattern. Some variations: #1: First player (tentative black) puts three stones (two black and one white) in 3x3 area around the center of the board. After that second player (tentative white) puts two stones (one black and one white) in 5x5 area around the center of the board. After that first player (tentative black) has the right to change the colour of the stones (swap option). After that the game is played without any restrictions. #2: First player (tentative black) puts three stones (two black and one white) in 7x7 area around the center of the board. After that second player (tentative white) has three options, he/she need to choose one of these options: Don’t swap sides, he/she have to make 4-th move as White. Swap sides, the other side have to make 4-th move as White. Put two stones (one black and one white) in 7x7 area around the center of the board, and first player (tentative black) has the right to change the colour of the stones (swap option). After that the game is played without any restrictions. Other rules (mostly used for Renju): „Sakata” rule „Yamaguchi” rule
jarek 30.5.2005 10:25  284
TAKEBACK není jednodušší než CO?? Snad ne než smazání celé hry a její znovu nahrání pomocí BOARD/DONE bez posledního tahu?
Vymyšlenou situaci lze třeba i z právě hrané partie dvou brainů. Po pozastavení hry uživatelem manažer prostě jen nezadá další příkaz (jedno který) a následuje posloupnost (pro jeden brain - pro druhý obráceně) např.:
PLAY1 x,y
PLAY1 x,y
pokračuje jeden z brainů:
GIVE_SUGG
Jak jednoduché a přímočaré. Jen si zkus totéž vyřešit pomocí platných příkazů.

kubin 29.5.2005 22:41  283
TAKEBACK atd...Mě se to TAKEBACK nezdá jednoduší, možná to vyjde na stejno, navíc s tím nejdou brainu předat některé situace (v budoucnu budu chtít zadat nějakou vymyšlenou zajímavou situaci brainu, naklikám jí do manageru(třeba to bude podporovat) a pustim na ni brain), kde bude jeden hráč mít víc jak o dva kameny více. Hlavně o protokol se stará Petr, takže všechny návrhy na něj.
jarek 26.5.2005 13:56  282
TAKEBACK jsem navrhl jako nepovinný, takže otázka by měla znít "Proč mít 3, když stačí jeden?"
Bohužel to také svědčí o nepochopení systému, protože GIVE_SUGG, PLAY1, PLAY2 nenahrazují jen TURN, ale taky povinný (vynucená zahájení) BOARD/x,y,1 nebo 2/DONE, což jsou nejen 4 příkazy, ale taky čtecí smyčka navíc.
TURN + BOARD/DONE jsou příkazy jednoúčelové, nestardardní požadavky se s nimi řeší těžkopádně, pokud vůbec. Nové příkazy jsou flexibilní a jejich kombinací lze elegantně řešit skoro cokoli, co se v budoucnu vyskytne.
bilbo 25.5.2005 15:54  281
suggest a play je nepovinny .... povinny je jen turn. aby se vyuzilo Suggest a play tak je potreba jednak specialni manager, ktery to nejak vyuziva (napr. necha si navrhnout tah, ale pak hraje jinak ...), jednak brain co to podporuje. Co ja vim, tak to chtel jirka ISA pro debugovani, v turnaji manager vsechny suggesty schvali playem ....

Takze SUGGEST/PLAY je mozny ignorovat z hlediska vyvoje brainu. Jako b nebyl. staci umet TURN

takze misto GIVE_SUGG , PLAY1 , PLAY2 , TAKEBACK je jediny prikaz - TURN (na ktery brain odpovi vlastnim tahem)

Proc mit 4 prikazy, kdyz staci jeden?
jarek 25.5.2005 10:22  280
Zrušme 9 příkazů a nahraďme je čtyřmi!aneb Jak dál?

Nejprve bych chtěl předeslat, že do toho nerýpu kvůli své lenosti přizpůsobit se platnému protokolu. Kanec už ho umí kompletně a docela jsem zaslzel, když na vynucených zahájeních zbouchnul jednu pěknou swini.
Začalo to kritikou BOARD...DONE, pak jsem se dočetl že BOARD...DONE řeší vše a je jednoduchý, následovalo několik spíše kladných reakcí (na PLAY1,PLAY2). No a protože všechno se vším souvisí, rozhodl jsem se navrhnout novou sadu příkazů tak, aby:
- jich bylo co nejmíň
- měli pokud možno stejnou syntaxi, aby název příkazu říkal vše a nemusel tam být další parametr
- nevyžadovali další smyčky pro čtení jako BOARD...DONE
- byli tak základní, aby umožňovaly řešení budoucích požadavků a situací ( takže protokol nebude bobtnat jak předpisy do EU)
- manager by měl mít jistotu, že příkaz byl vykonán před zadáním dalšího příkazu

Stávající příkazy jsou doplněny o ty, které jsem našel v Petrově kostře, povinnost pro turnaj počítá s vynuceným zahájením.
Vysvětlivky: n - strana čtverce; m,n - obdélník; x,y - souřadnice tahu; nic - žádná odpověď; P - povinný pro účast na turnaji; N - nepovinný leč nutný k plnému využití pod namagerem
Ponechávám: INFO O-CO-GO param, START n, RECSTART m,n, ABOUT, END.

Navrhuji: (PŘÍKAZ / ODPOVĚĎ / KOMENTÁŘ)
P GIVE_SUGG / x,y / brain navrhne svůj tah, ale nezapíše si ho do tabulek
P PLAY1 x,y / OK / brain si zapíše svůj tah a uvědomí manager o úspěchu zápisu
P PLAY2 x,y / OK / brain si zapíše soupeřův tah a uvědomí manager o úspěchu zápisu
N TAKEBACK x,y / OK / brain si vymaže poslední tah partie, x y je pouze informace pro brainy, které si nepamatují historii tahů. Uvědomí o úspěchu.

Srovnání rušených (6 povinných, 3 N)a navrhovaných (3 P, 1 N) příkazů:
rušený____________odpověď________________navrhovaný__________odpověď

P BEGIN_______x,y nebo N SUGGEST x,y______P GIVE_SUGG__________x,y
P TURN x,y_____x,y nebo N SUGGEST x,y______P PLAY1 x,y___________OK
N PLAY x,y__________x,y___________________P PLAY2 x,y___________OK
N RESTART__________nic__________________N TAKEBACK x,y____ ___OK
smyčka BOARD .... DONE:
P BOARD___________nic
P x,y,1____________nic
P x,y,2____________nic
P DONE_______x,y nebo N SUGGEST x,y
speciální odpověď:
N SUGGEST x,y

Poznámky:
- RESTART by mohl být popř. ponechán, aby nemusela být série příkazů TAKEBACK x,y
- některé brainy neuchovávají historii tahů, proto nebyl použit formát TAKEBACK poč-tahů; nicméně situaci by to dále zjednodušilo
Já vím, že to bude (pokud to přijmete) znamenat částečné předělání komunikace, ale znamená to její zjednodušení a rozhodně jednodušší to budou mít nováčci. Do příštího turnaje je dost času a ve srovnání s vytvořením/vylepšením brainu je ta změna komunikace banalita.
bla bla bla
Tak dost a teď mě třeba ukamenujte!
marek 21.5.2005 12:19  279
na centrumu už pár let
kubin 21.5.2005 11:15  278
Seznam spustil nový herní server ww.hry.cz, nahlídl jsem tam a právě teď je tam 41 lidí hrajících piškvorky.
pela 16.5.2005 22:54  277
zahájeníZatím je brzy dohadovat se na zahájeních, která budou použita až při příštím turnaji. V každém případě byste se měli snažit své brainy udělat tak, aby hrály dobře při každém zahájení, a nespoléhat se na to, jestli budou nebo nebudou podle pravidel PRO.

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